MINUTES OF THE STRASBURG PLANNING COMMISSION WORKSESSION HELD ON THURSDAY, MARCH 16, 2006, AT 7:30 P.M. IN THE COUNCIL CHAMBERS OF THE TOWN HALL.
Planning Commission members present: Chairman Smith, and Commissioners Crisman, Howard, Kepler, Terndrup, and Whittle. Absent: Commissioner Elliott. Others present: Town Manager Fauber, Vice Mayor Nicholson, and Council Member Rinker.
It was decided to add to the consent agenda for tabling.
Chairman Smith asked if there was a representative of the applicant in attendance and as no one spoke up, he asked Town Manager Fauber for information. Town Manager Fauber said the applicant discussed the issue with Planner Amos before she left for maternity leave. He received the application and processed it, but he basically only knows what is stated on the application. Chairman Smith asked if neighbors had been notified and Town Manager Fauber said they had been.
Commissioner Kepler said he does not see any problem with granting this. He said the application did not say how many employees would be at the site, but that they do have two off—street parking spaces and four on-street. He drove by the property and it is a single story dwelling, with a driveway. The neighborhood is all residential with a church nearby. As long as they don’t do anything such as erect large signs and keep it as a residential atmosphere, he doesn’t see where it would be an issue. He would like to see more landscaping in the front.
Chairman Smith said his main concern is how many office workers there would be and that it could mean quite a bit of extra traffic in the area as compared to a normal family. He added he would have also weighed comments from neighbors, but no one spoke on this issue.
Commissioner Crisman agreed that he would like to know how many employees are there and the hours of operation. He wouldn’t want to see additional traffic in the area when school children are being picked up or dropped off. He added Ash Street isn’t the widest street and he wouldn’t want to see a lot of extra traffic.
Vice Mayor Nicholson said she lives next door to one of the group homes in Madison Heights and one of the problems they have is with shift change. She realizes this is the corporate office, but the home in her neighborhood has a driveway and employees don’t use it. The employees don’t want to block others in and she doesn’t want to see parking become a problem at the office. It would be good to know the number of employees and if the parking could somehow be expanded. She said it is a burden to her neighbors as the group home employees park in front of their homes.
Council Member Rinker said, “I, too, would reiterate what Taralyn (Vice-Mayor Nicholson) said. I pass by this one facility everyday to and from my place of employment and at any one time there are a lot of cars sitting on that side of the street, lined in front of other people’s homes. The thing that bothers me a little bit is, and I understand why they set these things down in residential areas, but quite honestly I think we need to give consideration in our ordinance committee to setting up an ordinance for an area where these are acceptable and approved uses for a particular part of Town --- somewhat removed from everybody’s actual place of residence because I talked to a realtor and he thinks it actually, truly devalues adjacent properties. I can tell you where I live, in my home, I seriously would not want one of these units right next door to my home; no way. Even though you don’t really see the folks a lot, it’s there and when people come to the neighborhood to visit you, they see these folks standing out and they’ve got to have a place to go and I’m sympathetic to that, I really am, and I think we need a particular quote/unquote zone or area or areas in Town that would be like where daycare centers go that are somewhat removed directly from next-door neighboring to nice residential homes. This kind of concerns me, quite honestly. I’m sure anybody sitting up here on this commission truthfully if you were told, would you want one of these places right next door to you. You’ve got to answer that question.”
(An audience member asked to speak, but Chairman Smith did not allow this as the person had not signed up to speak).
Vice Mayor Nicholson said, “I believe in the program” and she is not saying otherwise. “I’m not saying that I won’t or will support this special use permit, but possibly if the owners or staff could be aware of these concerns (parking) and possibly the staff just need to be reminded at the other locations that it is a concern. It does not mean that we don’t believe in the program; does not mean we want to shut them down or something like that. But, possibly if you convey this, possibly they don’t even know that it’s an issue.”
Council Member Rinker said Vice Mayor Nicholson is correct.
The consensus of the Commissioners was to put this item back on next month’s Worksession agenda and to request a representative to attend.
Clay Athey, representing the applicant, Madison Development Associates, LLC: This discussion started in 1984 when the Town decided this was within an annex area and was said to be appropriate for something other than agricultural. Mr. Athey said not many Towns had much land in them designated agricultural and this is not generally something for towns. Mr. Boyd came in 2002 and was told he needed to do some different things if he wanted it brought into Town. The Town did annex it on January 1, 2006. He said now we are at the fourth step and Mr. Boyd has attempted to address the concerns made. One of the concerns was the viewshed in respect to the National Park. Mr. Boyd has created a conservation easement that runs along where the viewsheds would be affected in regards to this. There have been concerns with the floodplain. Mr. Boyd had the Town’s consultant on floodplains, Dewberry and Davis, look at the plans. The floodplain was reset and has been left as open space in the current proposal and consists of approximately 70 acres. Mr. Boyd has also heard of the need for additional playing fields for athletics. This area along the floodplain is a perfect place for these fields and reminds Mr. Athey of Bing Crosby Stadium in Front Royal, which is also along the floodplain of Happy Creek. Mr. Boyd wants to give something back to the Town in this. He continued by saying this is a low impact development --- 180 houses with 70 acres of open spaces; “it’s about 1.4 houses per acre and your ordinance permits a great deal more than that.” He believes each development should be evaluated on its own merit and not take into consideration things that have happened in the past. Mr. Boyd was also told in 2002, “you need to find an alternative road; we don’t want the road to run through Madison Heights.” Mr. Boyd has purchased land around Route 11 and has found an alternative route into the property. “In the proffer package he is saying to this Planning Commission and to the Town Council, I will connect an additional road through Madison Heights at your request and I’ll do that after the 77th house is built. Now, he’s building 18 a year; 18 houses a year and in exchange for that you are going to get all these amenities.” He has found the alternative route and is also going to be helping with the pressure in the area. He is committed to improvements to the Town’s infrastructure and $500 per lot to a downstream sewer interceptor improvements. He has also committed to a high pressure water transmission system to help in Madison Heights. “I will say to you once again, if you look closely at what Mr. Boyd is in effect bringing to the Town of Strasburg, and compare it to that which has come in the past, I don’t think that anyone can honestly, well I don’t think that anyone can say that anything that’s occurred in the last five to ten years compares to this in the number of houses that are going to be built in exchange for the improvements to the way of life for the citizens of Strasburg. We’re also talking about $400,000 homes which will generate additional tax revenue; he’s going to set up a foundation that basically the Town won’t have to foot the bill for; won’t have to maintain the fields.” He pointed out all the various types of fields that will be built. You have to evaluate these projects as they come in, “but the major question is will it add to the Town’s fabric? Will it help the Town of Strasburg? And, I will submit to you, because of the proffer package that’s been submitted, that this will improve the Town of Strasburg in the future.”
Chairman Smith asked if Mr. Maddox, also a representative of the applicant, if he wanted to add more and Mr. Maddox answered he would answer any technical questions Commissioners might have.
Warren Pieratt, 429 Dickerson Lane, Strasburg, VA: Mr.Peiratt reiterated statements made in the preceding Public Hearing. He said he has lived in the Town for 16 years and has two children and as president of the Strasburg Midget Football League, knows about the need for more athletic fields. This year he has 152 children in the program and by the middle of the season the grass at the middle school was gone. There are too many children for one field. The same thing is true of Little League. He has talked to many coaches in the Town and no one that he has talked to is opposed to the project. Many don’t like the number of houses going into Town, but “this is like a dream: this is exactly what we need.” He said several of the games this past season could not be played because Strasburg High School would not allow it because of rain and they didn’t want the fields torn up. They currently have problems with the County cutting the grass at the middle school and when they do it themselves are told they shouldn’t. He has people who will cut the grass and paint the fields. The fields will be soft and grassy and will be easier on the players. This is what we need and it won’t cost anything. Mr. Boyd will provide lighting for the fields and currently they don’t have lights to practice under. The program is growing 30 kids a year just in midget football and we need this support for this. Ground needs to be broken as soon as possible.
Sarah Mauck, 886 E. King Street, Strasburg, VA: “Speaking to you as a private citizen; a concerned citizen as I did two nights ago. I think at that meeting two nights ago, it was recommended that in lieu of the glitches we’ve had in the past month, maybe two months, maybe longer, at the recommendation of our Mayor, that the Town ordinances be reviewed and I think at this time it would be appropriate if we have a moratorium on rezoning until they are reviewed; until we see where we are. We have a lot of new houses that are coming in that have been rezoned; we have commercial; it may be the proper time to sit still and see where we are. I’m not sure, but I do believe that in the zoning that the island is in right now, ball fields can go in now without rezoning. So, if that is something that is needed, and Mr. Boyd truly wants to put those in, they can be started. Rezoning may be a little bit premature before we actually review what’s going on with our Council and our ordinances.”
Pat Brown, 334 W. Queen Street, Strasburg, VA: “I would agree wholeheartedly with the past citizen, Mrs. Mauck”s comments, and feel that we need to visit issues even more carefully given circumstances that have arisen and things that have been done. I feel that I am sitting next to some very tragic things that have happened. So again, I agree wholeheartedly with Mrs. Mauck --- I think we need to re-visit the Town Council and Planning Commission as they re-visit their ordinances and consider things very carefully. I hear what the gentleman is saying about the ball fields for kids, and if it doesn’t require rezoning, why not? But, we have a lot of homes going in and we are trying to improve our infrastructure so I think we need to be careful.”
Scott Terndrup, 247 S. Fort St., Strasburg, VA: “The athletic fields can be built. Bing Crosby Stadium was donated to the Town of Front Royal; if Mr. Boyd wants to donate these fields, that would be great; they can even name them after him. It would be a wonderful thing; it would be a great public service. There is nothing stopping those fields from being built tomorrow or from being built two years ago. So, it’s not the fields --- that’s the carrot; he’s throwing the fields out there because he wants the houses built. So, let’s at least be honest about what the deal is. The other thing I want to say is about flooding. The ’96 flood, where would all these houses be? We’re talking about how many families stuck in the bottom of a bowl. Folks, those people of New Orleans never meant to be stuck at the bottom of that bowl either. How do you predict ‘Mother Nature’; how do you predict what’s going to be the condition of these homes of a natural disaster strikes and there is some kind of flooding. We are undergoing weather changes that are global in nature; who’s to say what could happen 20 to 30 years from now on these sites. You’re talking about putting hundreds of people down there and it would be the responsibility of this Town to evacuate that site if something should happen. I think it is inappropriate; the flooding issue has never been resolved. At a Planning Commission meeting three years ago I talked with at gentleman who was actually, who said that entire site was underwater and he was there. Until the safety of this area can be resolved, I just don’t hear any evidence that this is a suitable site for rooftops.”
Harold Davidson, 947 Bowman Mill Road, Strasburg, VA: “I’ve lived above the island for maybe 50 or 60 years; it does flood. I don’t need an engineer tell me it doesn’t; it does. There was only one house on that place that I know of and it burnt down. The reason why it burnt down was the fire department couldn’t get over there because the hill is so steep. It’s still steep, even the new one going out toward Route 11; that’s a steep road. They’ve never fixed Bowman Mill Road to go out to Madison Heights yet; they built the subdivision, but haven’t done anything to the road; it’s just like it was 50 years ago…As far as those playing fields, we have a park down here in Strasburg; it’s a Strasburg park. There are no fields down there; I mean I don’t know why, but that’s all I’ve got to say.”
Carl Rinker, 74 Philips Ct., Strasburg, VA: “I went to high school here; went to college and you know, I can take my slide rule out or I can take my pencil out and I can tell you in a heartbeat that 180 lots on 61.06 acres doesn’t equate to 1 ¼ lots per acre; in my opinion it equates to about three lots per acre. You can add on the other part of it as being a carrot or being a caveat around it, but let’s get down to the real hard core here. The only development area is 61.06 acres. You load that with 180 homes, that equates to over three lots per acre. You can call it anything you want to; you can coat it with candy, you can coat it with honey, you can coat it anything. Also, I’ll tell you something, I’m not the kind of person, I’d rather fight than switch. Somebody holds a 357 Magnum up to my head, something’s going to happen; I’m either going to get killed or I’m going to fight like heck. I’ve got to tell you something, when somebody holds ball fields and everything over my head as a carrot or a caveat for approval for a subdivision, I don’t take that laying down and I don’t like that, I’m going to be quite honest with you. In my opinion, yeah we need ball fields here; we need recreation areas here; let Mr. Boyd put his money where his mouth is. If he wants to do something for this community, he can go right down over that hill and go to town tomorrow as far as I’m concerned. That’s great! That’s truly great! I think that’s fantastic for this community. But, as far as I’m concerned the bypass that somebody mentioned would be a great bypass --- wrong. I can tell you, going down over that hill --- I personally helped on the engineering work on that when we first got started several years ago --- the grade on that hill is over 14% going down over that hill. That exceeds the 8 to 10% that’s recommended by the State of Virginia for a major, thoroughfare highway. Sure, he can move dirt down there; he can lessen that, but I’ve watched from my house cars and trucks trying to go down over that hill in the dead of winter and I’ve watched Mr. Boyd himself nearly go down into that steep gully. Yes sir, sure, you can put up guard rails all day long that will stop cars like that from going down into the gully, but what’s going to prevent them from sliding all the way down that hill and hurting themselves or killing somebody. That’s not an appropriate road for quote/unquote bypass. If you want to do a bypass, go on out around Pouts Hill, come around somewhere else, do it somewhere else or figure something else out. But, then let’s go to the traffic problem; we’re going to have a traffic problem both out at Bowman Mill Road and out on the other end. To load this down with 180 single family lots is totally ludicrous and ridiculous. I could go for 90; I could go for 80, but I can tell you I will not support 180 single family homes on that site; it’s ridiculous. Madison Associates, who makes that up? Who’s a member of that? I’d like to hear from somebody --- who are the stockholders of that company? Is it engineers here? Is it other developers here? Is it other people with special interests in this Town?” (Mr. Athey said it was Mr. Boyd). Mr. Rinker continued by saying, “I didn’t ask for his input right now. You’ll get your turn. So, as far as I’m concerned we’ve got all kinds of problems with this development and I agree with what Mrs. Mauck said: I sat up here the other night along with the Mayor and we basically said we need to put the brakes on these things; we need to put a stop to this; we need to go back and review our ordinances and make sure that we make the proper changes that make this Town develop in the fashion that we want it to develop in. We don’t need to let this thing get out of hand like a rip-roaring fire and a development wag this Town. This Town needs to tell the developers and the development where it’s going to go, how it’s going to go, and what we’re going to do.”
Discussion:
Chairman Smith said people are correct that under X-Transitional zoning which this property is currently, those ball fields can be built without any further action. He feels we should wait on rezoning this or any other properties because of the efforts that are needed to update our ordinances. If it is approved now, then whatever ordinances are in place now will prevail. The flooding is also a concern of his and always will be. He understands the 100 year floodplain, but has heard from many who have seen it and a lot more than areas shown were underwater. He doesn’t know if this is because maybe the backwaters would rise higher than the floodplains, he doesn’t know, but he “thinks the Town would be negligent in approving homes in known, or at least a visibly known flood area.” He put a call in to the Corp of Engineers about the bridges that will be needed, but hasn’t heard back on this. If the rezoning goes forward, he thinks the proper use would be A-1 or low density (R-1-A) housing. Higher density housing on the border of Town just doesn’t seem to fit there and would only help the developer. “The Town does not benefit, and in fact loses revenue from higher density development in this area because of services that must be provided over time.” The desire of the developer to leave a legacy of ball fields to the Town is admirable and he would encourage him to do so and that could be accomplished under A-1 zoning or X-Transitional.
Commissioner Kepler is mostly concerned with the flooding and thinks it would be nice if the Planning Commission was provided with a copy of the Dewberry and Davis report so they can confirm some of the numbers and make sure everything looks “copasetic.” He agrees there are eyewitness accounts down there that have been shown on items submitted by the developer. “We have received a copy of a map that the building official for Shenandoah County provided to us. I’m assuming that’s coming from the FEMA floodplain maps.” (Mr. Gary Showman spoke, but did not come to the podium so it could be made a part of the official record). Mr. Kepler doesn’t think “we would be responsible as public officials to allow single family houses to be built within a floodplain knowing full well that at some point in the future there’s going to be issues of flooding and damage.”
Mr. Maddox said one of the reasons he suggested using Dewberry and Davis is because this is the consultant for FEMA and the Corp of Engineers and they are also the “people that you submit documents to in order to get flood map revisions and so forth so they are the unqualified experts and they’ve given us the 100 year flood elevation.” Commissioner Kepler asked they had done a floodplain study and asked if the results were out (study attached hereto). Mr. Maddox said the next step would be to do the technical analysis with bridges. He went on to explain the island is a backwater and how flooding occurs on this island. He said not a lot of flood flow is accepted by the oxbow loop itself. There is the effect of upstream and downstream water elevation that will need to be taken into account with the bridges. There will need to be a Corp permit, as well as a Virginia Marine Resources Committee. Much needs to be done before this site would be usable and there are many costs involved. Mr. Maddox said, “The mere suggestion that you can go out there and do what Mr. Boyd was doing without any revenue strength from residential, it’s not an issue that we can really deal with in the future.”
Mr. Athey responded to comments made by Council Member Rinker and read from the application: “The Code of Virginia allows us to request full disclosure of ownership in relation to rezoning applications. Please list below all owners or parties in interest of the land to be rezoned.” He continued by saying “it is Doug and Tracy Boyd and I’ll be sure to get a copy of the LLC so that you’ll know exactly who you’re representing. When you’re an attorney you do try to know who you are representing when you represent them. Just didn’t want to have anything unclear here about who may or may not own this particular piece of property.”
Commissioner Whittle says all of us love Strasburg football and he grew up playing Strasburg football; “that’s what made me a man, I believe, and where I am today, but I do ultimately think there’s some concerns with the plan that is for the Island Farm.” He said he had voted to bring this property into Town with annexation, but he was just bringing the land in. “My recommendation for the land was for just athletic fields, period.” He thinks some commercial could be put there such as batting cages. But, he doesn’t like the 180 homes with one way in and one way out. He also wonders if these fields could support the growth that has already been approved. He would like to have more information on what kind of facilities can be put at the Town Park. He also thinks the ordinances need to be reviewed, but the Comprehensive Plan can lead in the right direction and question what the plan is. By using the Comprehensive Plan, he feels he would have to vote no for the rezoning on this development and he read various points from the Plan and discussed how his concerns compare with the Comprehensive Plan. He also said when you look at the flood plain map given by Mr. Showman, it shows roads that would be covered by a flood and this concerns him. He even wonders if the ball parks can be built on this property after reading the Comprehensive Plan. “As a planning commissioner, I’ve been challenged to uphold the ordinances and the Comprehensive Plan based on information that I’ve been given from the government leaders of the Town and that is why I bring these things up and have to base my decision on that.”
Vice Mayor Nicholson addressed the recreation issues that were brought up. The park closes at dark because of a lighting issue and it wouldn’t be possible to have any practice fields down there. Currently there are two soccer fields and midget football does have a corner, to the right, below the soccer fields for a practice field. There are also two little league fields and “almost 50% of the Town Park is in the flood plain now.” Whenever there is going to be a flood, they try to go down and move equipment, etc. to protect it.
Commissioner Whittle loves the ball fields, but would like to see the whole area stay conservation and this is mentioned in the Comprehensive Plan for this area. He will need more information on the flood issue in the area.
Council Member Rinker said legally we can do all the flood studies we want. He said he had read an article about the levies in Mississippi lower region and we have just seen what happened and the “Army Corps of Engineers guaranteed those levies would hold anything that came in there. Well, you see how they failed; you see what happened; all those people down there because no one can predict what the weatherman is going to do and what God is going to do in the country. I don’t care what a FEMA study says; I don’t care where they say a flood line is; I have seen too many properties that they said would never, ever flood go underwater.” He thinks we should be very careful with hydraulic studies that say flooding won’t happen as this is only a set of calculations based upon previous findings; “nobody knows what God or the weather will do.”
Commissioner Kepler says you can’t predict the weather, “but there is no guarantee that an area outside of a 100 year flood plain is not going to flood.” He said a lot of the floods we have seen come through are more than 100 year storms which create higher elevations. “The typical number that you use in design of storm structure when looking at flood plains is the 100 year storm.” He says you also have to look at “an economy of scale” and doesn’t know if the 100 year storm is adequate, but hasn’t studied the ordinances to see if that is what is used. He added the Comprehensive Plan shows this area as a conservation area and not as a residential area and it does not seem conducive to residential. He thinks the roads would need to be above the 100 year storm as you need to have accessibility. He thinks it should stay conservation and recreational.
Mayor Crisman would like to see more information as he feels there are a lot of questions needing answers. Chairman Smith would be in favor of listing what is needed and then waiting until the ordinances are revised and adopted before doing anything.
Commissioner Howard asked about the length of the road coming out of Madison Heights, “what is the stretch of that down slope there.” Mr. Maddox said this road would need considerable work and it would be built to Town’s standards. Commissioner Howard said this road is in the shade and very steep. Mr. Maddox pointed out the other road is at a 10% grade which is in the Town’s standards, is above the 100 year flood plain, and there would always be a way out. Commissioner Howard says a school bus could not go down this road in inclement weather, but Mr. Maddox said many of the roads in this Town have such a grade and are in excess of 10% grade and the busses go on it. More discussion followed on the elevation, but Mr. Maddox pointed out this road into Madison Heights wouldn’t even have to be taken by the Town; it is their choice. This would provide residential traffic a way around Town and it is a gift! He concluded, “we came here real happy and I think we are going to leave here less than happy.”
Commissioner Kepler said the Town is in “desperate need of better accessibility through roads both in the east side of Town and the west side of Town. With this being considered a ‘thoroughfare’ or something to that affect, we’re going to be getting Madison Heights traffic coming in down through that area. What this Town really needs is a bypass or a thoroughfare or some kind of accessibility from Route 55, up to 81 or up to the intersection of 81. I don’t know if there is a way to make this project somehow provide through maybe another means other than a connection through Madison Heights, maybe a connection through Bowman Mill or some other form down through that area to provide that eastern connection. If that would be the case, something with a little less 90° bends; something with less housing fronting it with people backing onto the streets, more of a boulevard/thoroughfare type thing with parking on one side, a run of trees down the other side and backs of houses; something to provide that bypass. I haven’t looked at the streets; I mean we got this package on Monday, so I haven’t had ample time to pull out all the streets, figure out routes, and see if there is a better way to do things.” He continued by saying if the intention is to provide this looping, he doesn’t think this is a responsible way of building houses that would be backing into “an additional pass to the eastern side of Town.”
Mr. Maddox explained more about the flooding and said the “flood is predicted by the Shenandoah River, there’s two ways that can happen: one, Cedar Creek; and the other the Shenandoah River; it is a backwater effect of the Shenandoah River and is the worst case scenario of the Shenandoah River and that’s what is plotted. If you plot that elevation, the downtown area is underwater and I’m not sure in history that has ever happened. It actually comes all the way up through the Strasburg Hotel…And, of course you’re further upstream, in the confluence, where we’re getting the backwater effects so it’s actually higher and hopefully the island will never go underwater and I don’t think it ever has.”
Ron Cromer, Chief of Strasburg Fire Department: He said if you put 720 people on this island, without more information, he doesn’t think it should happen. “We can’t handle 720 people if we have to get them out of there.” He feels the current roads are too steep, and the one being proposed is “way too steep.” He thinks the road needs to go all the way to Bowman Mill Road, and then you will only have one way into that piece of property. People have told us this place floods and he knows it does. He concluded that until more information with the true scale of the highway is given and it must be 30’ wide and it cannot be a private road, then he thinks the Commission should wait.
Chairman Smith said it sounds as if the Commissioners want more information before moving on this item. He asked what information they are looking for.
Town Manager Fauber asked for a copy of the flood plain diagram that was distributed to the Commissioners so that it could be added to the records.
Ron Mislowsky, PHR&A, representing the applicant: “We were getting ready to start design on this project and in light of what has happened recently, we thought it might be a good idea to come back to you and look at the layout we’ve actually computed for the development to make sure there weren’t any concerns before we actually finished the designs, submit it to agencies, and got back to you for more formal review.” He feels they have more closely matched the master plan the Planning Commission had seen because there weren’t that many changes when it went through the Council approval. He pointed out various aspects of the design to the Commissioners. There will be 64 single family and 64 townhouses and he said the master plan stated the lot sizes, etc., and this layout presented now complies with that. “I think the more critical area here is the townhouse layout and, again, this has a private parking court with basically 24’ wide drive aisles and perpendicular parking on the outsides of that. It does also have a second way in and out for emergency access; those two ways, in and out, we don’t have to deal with the cul-de-sac issue on that. We think we’ve complied with the master plan; we think, as we’ve explained before, that this does meet the townhouse ordinance requirements for the townhouse layout and it does meet the 34’ wide street requirements for the single family layout. We’d like to get some indication from the Commission that this is the plan that you think you approved with the master plan last year and we’ll move forward for final design on it.”
Commissioner Kepler said the plan provided in the packets was similar to the master plan that was reviewed and approved by the Planning Commissions; Chairman Smith agreed with this. Commissioner Kepler’s main concern is the road width within the townhouse section. Mr. Mislowsky said it is 18’ parking spaces with 24’ drive aisles. Commissioner Kepler said “if I remember correctly, this was part of the private parking area with the homes;” Mr. Mislowsky agreed.
Commissioner Terndrup asked about the rear setbacks on the townhouses and the amendments on the amount. A discussion followed on this and Mr. Mislowsky asked for clarification as he thought the master plan established the lot sizes and setbacks that were required for this development so whatever lot sizes and setbacks that were specified on the master plan and subsequently become part of the proffer, those are the dimensional requirements that govern the development of the lots and I think we had this discussion before and I thought we had agreed.” Commissioner Kepler said he thought he had read someplace where it would not in any way violate the conditions of the ordinances. Mr. Mislowsky said this might be a policy issue, “but if you created a PD ordinance to allow more flexible design then you, by nature, are going to violate some section of the ordinances.” The Commissioners did not agree with this statement and Commissioner Kepler read from the Zoning booklet. Mr. Mislowsky said the dimensional requirements approved by the Planning Commission and Town Council should be what governs. Chairman Smith said they would ask the Town Attorney for clarification and “if that is the interpretation of the ordinance, then what we did is mess up basically by approving that dimension in there because we don’t have the authority to do that.”
Commissioner Terndrup read from 3-10.1 which says there shall not be more than eight and not less than four units contained in any one structure and in this plan there are two structures with 10 units and one with nine. Mr. Mislowsky will check on this.
Commissioner Kepler said the real question comes back to the roadways and accessibility to the site and if it is private or public. Discussions with the fire department say, historically, 24’ wide does not provide adequate accessibility to emergency vehicles. He read portions of the code book and said there are several ways of interpreting. Mr. Mislowsky agreed it can be read a couple of ways. He reads that as the width of the roads and they are looking at private driveways as these are private driveways and not public streets. Chairman Smith said he wants the fire department concerns to be addressed. Mr. Mislowsky said most ordinances say 24’ is the widest for any private driveways. The national fire code requirement is for a 26’ requirement if you have parking, but in this case the parking is not included in the road area. Parking in this plan is outside of the 24’ roadway and they are providing 42’ and 60’ wide paved area. Chairman Smith asked about the connector road into the townhouse development. Mr. Mislowsky said this will be a private road, maintained by the HOA and will be curbed and guttered. He said it will be 24’ wide. Commissioner Kepler asked if this back road was at first considered a “fire” road. Mr. Mislowsky said they are willing to work with the Planning Commission on this and Chairman Smith would like to speak with emergency departments to make sure they have what they need.
Mr. Mislowsky says the one area you need to look at is the ordinance is that no parking area can back out into a street. He thinks this is why the ordinance is like this for townhouses because if you have a public street you would not be able to park at the townhouses.
Commissioner Kepler said the cluster does let you not worry about the drive speeds.
Chairman Smith said he remembers being pleased with the layout of this design when it was brought before the Planning Commission. Commissioner Whittle agrees this looks like what was brought in before.
General question by Commissioner Kepler referred to the gas transmission lines. What are there rules and regulations and Mr. Mislowsky said the easements would still be there and they would have to comply to any of their rules.
Mr. Mislowsky asked where do I go from here. Chairman Smith said he took this as just a submittal for comments. Mr. Mislowsky said his main issue is the parking and if “I come back three months from now with a plan that has been through all the reviews and everything, am I going to get here and somebody is going to say, well you need to have a public street. I don’t want to go down that road.” Commissioner Kepler said the ordinances do allow for the sketch plat, but he may want to think about that; this would show the dimensions, etc. Mr. Mislowsky said he would like to answer the questions the Commissioners have now.
Chairman Smith said his questions still refer to the public vs. private streets vs. driveways.
Town Manager Fauber said we are hearing some of the same issues as to the interpretations of the ordinances that we heard with Cedar Valley and the Mayor wants to form a committee that will answer some of these questions. Chairman Smith asked if Mr. Mislowsky would want to wait for these answers and he said he would “rather wait a couple weeks then to come back in three months and get hammered again.” Chairman Smith said it would be wise to wait.
Chairman Smith gave a report from the Council on Cedar Valley and it was decided to form a joint committee of representatives of the Town Council, Planning Commission, Town Staff, and the developer to work out what should be the appropriate master plan to work with. He asked if the Commissioners were in agreement with this. Commissioners would still have their vote on if they agree with it or not; consensus was to move forth in this direction. He then asked for volunteers from the Planning Commission, but Mayor Crisman said this needs to be discussed at a later date. He said it is a special committee and he wanted to speak with Chairman Smith about this. Special committees according to Section 2-62 of the Code, all special committees will be appointed by the presiding officer of the Council and that would be the Mayor.
Mr. Mislowsky said he is not sure if he should keep going on this issue or wait for the special committee. Since the last meeting, they have gone back and tried to address some of the concerns of the Planning Commission. They went through the ordinances and revised the master plan and met the conditions of the master plan that the Council approved, but also added the information the Planning Commission wanted to see on the master plan. They have met with the developer and tried to address the long cul-de-sac issues because they realize this is a problem. He said they have added connections to other streets, but they envision these to be private streets and private connections. They would still have a cul-de-sac, but with access to other streets. These would not just be for emergency vehicles, but for the residents and would be full, curb and gutter streets.still be Talked to the developer about the long cul-de-sac issues and they have connected. He concluded by saying they do want to work with the Commissioners and they will be a part of the special committee to work through this issue.
Ben Butler, attorney for the developer: Mr. Butler said he came for two reasons. They do want to cooperate and the other reason is to ask how quickly can we meet. Currently they can’t do anything underground until this is settled.
Chairman Smith said it might be in everybody’s best interest if the site plan be withdrawn or they can waive the 90 day requirement. Mr. Mislowsky would like to wait and see when the committee is formed and see the timing on this. Mayor Crisman said he would like the committee to meet next week.
This will be added as a non-action item to the agenda.
Being no further business, the Worksession adjourned at 9:27 p.m.